Navigating Your Career Path: Expert Insights from Dr. Ray Pastore, Professor of Instructional Design

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SUMMARY

• Dr. Ray Pastore, a full professor and program coordinator at the University of North Carolina Wilmington, shares his journey into instructional technology and online learning. He explains how he initially pursued web development but discovered a passion for instructional design and training during his graduate program. Dr. Ray highlights the growth of the e-learning field over the years and the public's limited understanding of the role of instructional designers.
• The conversation then delves into the importance of gamification in e-learning. Dr. Ray clarifies the difference between gamification and game-based learning, emphasizing that gamification involves incorporating game elements into non-game settings like classrooms. He asserts that gamification, when appropriately implemented, can engage and motivate learners, enhancing their overall experience. However, he warns against the misguided use of gamification without proper consideration of its effectiveness.
• The discussion moves on to identifying training needs within organizations. Dr. Ray suggests that the easiest way to identify such needs is when clients explicitly present them. However, he emphasizes the significance of conducting thorough front-end analyses to accurately identify and address the problem at hand. He shares his approach of probing questions and analyzing available documents to gain a comprehensive understanding of the client's needs. Dr. Ray acknowledges the challenge of balancing limited timeframes in a consulting role but emphasizes the importance of being honest with clients about the suitability of training solutions.
• He discusses the gratifying aspects of working in instructional design and mentions that good salaries, job variation, continuous learning opportunities, and access to the latest technology are some of the rewarding aspects of the field. He also notes that instructional design salaries are generally good compared to other fields and emphasizes that it's important to find a specific area within the field that one is passionate about to be successful. Ray mentions that there are opportunities in both academic and corporate sectors of e-learning and highlights the differences between the two. Academic positions offer a more relaxed pace, job security, and working with faculty, but salaries may be lower. On the other hand, corporate positions often offer higher salaries and more exciting work but can be more stressful. The speaker mentions that teachers can make good instructional designers due to their experience in teaching, understanding of learner motivation, and classroom management skills. He also mentioned that instructional design can be a good career transition for teachers seeking a change and higher salaries and acknowledges the low salaries in the teaching profession and the challenges it poses for teachers.
• Overall, Dr. Ray Pastore provides valuable insights into his background in instructional technology, the significance of gamification in e-learning, the process of identifying training needs, and the rewarding aspects of a career in online learning.

INSPIRATIONAL QUOTES

TRANSCRIPT

Hello and welcome to the elearning and instructional design for beginners podcast, where new and aspiring instructional designers start, grow and advance their careers and instructional design and online learning development. I'm your host Krystal Harper. I'm a former school teacher who transitioned to instructional design, all while working full time as a single mom. Would you like to become a successful instructional designer without the burden of earning another degree? Well, then let's get started. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the elearning and instructional design for beginners. Today I have a special guest Dr. Ray Pastore on the show. Dr. Ray is a full professor and program coordinator of eSports and online teaching and learning within the Instructional Technology Program at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. He is an active youtuber with over 3.2 million views recently published his first book and has 28 peer reviewed journal publications with a background and management consulting, game design, game based learning and instructional design. He has worked on projects for Fortune 100 companies, the military, as well as a myriad of schools and universities in addition to serving as coordinator of UNC W's eSports program. Dr. Pastore is faculty advisor of UNC W's Seahawk eSports club. He holds a PhD in instructional systems from Penn State University. Wow. Now that's a super impressive background. I'm so glad to have you. Welcome, Dr. Ray.

Thank you. Welcome.

First, I'd love to learn a little bit about you and your background. Okay, how did you get started in online learning what drew you to the field of technology

I got kind of got swindled into being an instructional technologist. When I was I was in college, I was an undergrad in the late 90s. And there was no such thing as web development or graphic design or anything like that you had to choose Computer Science was your degree. And I just I wasn't interested. I learned programming, but I didn't want to do it as a job. And I found this thing called instructional technology, which would allow me to work with Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Flash, I guess they were not Adobe, it was Adobe Photoshop at the time, but it was Macromedia Flash and Dreamweaver and develop websites. And I was like, I want to develop websites. This is what I want to do send me to that graduate program. When I got there. I was like, What is this learning stuff? They're teaching me? Why am I learning about learning and training, I just want to develop websites. But I started to really, really like that design that like training design and theory aspect to it that I didn't even know existed when I signed up for the program. So I kind of I got interested in it because of my love for tests. Awesome.

So cool. Came in from the office saying range, but like, it's crazy, because yeah, I didn't even know what it was either. But you started and he said the late 90s

Yeah, and there was no such thing as graphic design. At the time, there was just computer art was like, didn't really exist. And people were just starting to make websites. And it was like a really small field. And you couldn't really go to college and take like a course on web design. And that's what I was interested in. And there just wasn't anything like that at the time. I guess now it's still like up in the air where that where that should exist. But and sometimes it is in instructional tech programs. So it's cool to have Warren listen to their stories to like what the field is doing today. See, like the differences over the last like 50 to 70 years in the field.

And still like there aren't enough people out there that even know what it is still I think everyone knows, ya know,

we're a very small field, we are a very small field compared to other we're really small. So it's a Simone, there's a lot of people in it. It's getting bigger. Every company has a training team. But we as a field, we're we're very small. When we talk about like I look at numbers of publications and things like that, and we're really tiny

right now. But with elearning growing so much lately, hopefully, I think it's going to I think everyone rocketing

everyone's heard of elearning. But they still don't know there's like this magic person behind there that actually is developing it and has developed a career for developing elearning called an instruction like, I don't think that set into the public. But everyone knows what are you learning this? There's this disconnect on what our field really is. So there's like this education part where maybe your program or pieces of your program are very K to 12 focused, versus the corporate side. So there's like this disconnect sometimes in what classes students have to take it depending on what program they've selected.

Definitely, yeah. And yours is education and corporate, right, your career,

mostly corporate. You know, I mean, my background is in management consulting, and I still own a consulting firm. So I did a lot of government contracting, and I still own a consulting firm doing all well. I've actually done some government as well, but mostly all corporate consulting. So I'd say my program is much more geared towards that. But a lot of my students are K to 12, educators leaving education to go into corporate, which is why my programs really transitioned into that.

So why do you think gamification is a must? And elearning?

I guess I'll frame this in two ways. So the first thing I will say is that the only thing that's a must in education or learning is what's required to solve your problem, whether that's gamification, whether that's problem based learning, they are appropriate at various times and not appropriate at various times. So having said that, and got that out of the way, let's talk about the cool stuff about gamification. So gamification, and a lot of people misinterpret what this term means. So just to define what I say when I mean, when I'm saying the term, it's applying game, like elements into a non game situation, like a classroom or something like that. But a lot of people sometimes say gamification, and they really mean game based learning, which is gaming for learning or really gaming anywhere. So it's, it's kind of like this weird thing where you have to explain what you mean. Or sometimes I have to just assume people really mean just game based learning. And why is gaming popular in general for learning, not just gamification. But it's a must in that in the fact that when appropriate, it can engage and motivate your learners. So anything that engages people, anything that gets your learners interested in times when they may or may not be is awesome, and should be added to a piece of training. Now, a lot of people will add just like leaderboards or take some like piece of gamification and try to throw it into somewhere where it shouldn't exist, and then it's not going to work correctly. So it's all about like incorporating gamification elements into design where they're going to be effective. Yeah, in those situations. Yeah. Why would you not want to engage your learner's why would you not want to get them, you know, more excited about what they're learning about that steady flow that we talked about in game based learning that flow that they they're learning, and they want to in their mode, you know, this keeping up those levels of engagement are so important. So when you can do it, and when it's easy to incorporate, and you have the time and the money, it should absolutely be included? Right? Yeah,

you make really good points on that, too, because there are so many different elements. And yeah, you're right, it could be confusing, or not even motivating enough, if it's, if they're only using one particular element.

You know, it's it's an interesting, it's just one of those things where like, I'm the biggest gamer in the world, I teach ea sports. I play video games every single day, I've been competitive in video games, but like, sometimes I go into a course. And I'm just like, just let me learn my material. I don't need to like this extra gaming portion wasn't necessary for this. But like, so it just has to be done correctly, and it can just be thrown in. But when it's done correctly, like, it's awesome. Like I talked about one of the best ways I see gamification being utilized is in marketing and advertising. Like, play our game and like keep buying our soda and like to play the game or like McDonald's Monopoly, like those kinds of things work so well and are so effective, and they don't they've done such a good job of that, that it's like, you know, that's when I see gamification working so well. So it's using it in the right places,

right? What do you think is the best way to identify training needs and accompany

I would say, the easiest way to identify needs is when someone else brings it to me, that's the easiest way. So that's the best way to do it, someone else is identified the problem already, they're telling you, this is what we need. We're gonna pay you to design this training, but you need to do a front end analysis or some kind of analysis, some kind of gap analysis. You know, I I pride myself in finding problems in every organization, we even though people might hate me for finding all the problems and everything, especially like my wife and our household, finding problems with the house and, and everything. But, you know, it's finding the problems and really doing a front end analysis, which you have to do even when I first meet with a client, I tell people I am as I'm talking to them, even though we might only have a 30 minute talk. And that might be my whole analysis that I have a 130 minute phone call with this client in that whole time. I'm trying to find out what exactly is the problem? And what kind of resources do they have to solve that problem? So it's, it's probing questions, it's potentially looking at documents that they might send me it's, you know, on a lot of levels, the client has to tell you or give you all the information so that you can correctly say yes, what you've told me is the problem is they they're always coming to me with this is the issue, and I have to determine if it really is and then how do we go about really solving it? Maybe it's a training need, and maybe it's not, you know, I've had clients come to me with problems and they want to develop training and I'm like, this isn't going to solve your problem. Maybe I'll gladly develop it if you're gonna pay me a lot of money, but I don't think it's going to actually work for you. And I'm very upfront about that in their expectations so that they're not upset when it doesn't work.

Yeah, it seems like clients sometimes have unrealistic expect Asians and also Yeah, it's a lot of investigating and figuring out the actual problems sometimes.

Yeah, it can be, it can be a challenge. And sometimes as like as a consultant in my current role, I just I don't have, they don't want me, they're not going to pay me to go in and do like an analysis for a month. So I have to I might have maybe if I'm lucky, three phone calls, three conference meetings, resume calls, whatever. But that's about it. Usually, it's a one hour call, and I have to write a proposal with a solution after that one hour call. If it's even that long, right there. You know, I have to do it quick. And really, you know, you get experience. And you can tell like, oh, yeah, this is a common problem across companies. I kind of know what they want. I know what they need, because I've done this 100 Other times, but like, when it's something new, it's always well, we need a little bit more, I need to meet with you a couple times, maybe I need to talk to someone else. Maybe I need you just send me what's going on. And that'll do is depending on what the problem is, like, I've had clients say we're doing this training, and it's not working. And I said, Well, let me see your current training. And they send me like a 500 screen PowerPoint deck with no objectives words like the if I could develop the worst presentation in the world, like they've done it. I don't even know how that's possible. But they have done it. Like I want to give them an award for having the worst presents, and they haven't developed it. Sometimes they're like, we paid a company $2 million for this. Now, I'll be like, Oh, my God, I can't believe that happened. But they have and, and they're they want me to solve that. Look at it and say, well, it's you know, we discourse has been designed incorrectly, we need to reverse engineer what you've done. So you get a lot of that too. Yeah, that sounds

like a lie. I mean, it's a lot of hats that instructional designers have to play for sure. Yes,

it's a it's a weird field because of that.

Yeah, I know. And then with all the different companies and like recreate content on anything and everything. So that's a whole nother Yeah, you're

not me, it's it's weird developing content on everything that you don't know, the client doesn't always expect that they're going to have to do work that they're going to have to feed you that content, and give it to you. And yes, I'm going to become an expert on the content they're giving me I'm going to get to know it really well. But they have to give it to me,

right? But yes, that's why you gotta love learning. So what do you think is the most gratifying aspect of a career in online learning

gratifying aspect, I would say that there are some cool things about it, I'd say the most gratifying aspect is that we have pretty good salaries, it's a job that can be different all the time, one company from the next can be vastly different from one another one project from the next can be vastly different. So there's a lot of variation in what you can be doing. It's a job that if you like continuously learning and keeping up with technology, it's going to allow you and force you to do that, because there's always going to be new training tools out there, new things people are doing. And all of those points can be frustrating to the wrong person as well. Like, those are all things that I like about it, like I like being able to work in tech, I like being able to play with different technology, and always having a cool computer and like the latest thing, but if you're not into that stuff, then the tech part of the field is going to really frustrate you and drive you crazy. So you know, those are things that I think are rewarding, you know, our salaries are good, I have students coming out of their program right now making in the low six figures at the highest, the highest scale, that's the start, but you know, on average making in the 70s, those are pretty good salaries compared to like, you know, other fields. So they're, they're good. It's also not a huge field, which is both good and bad, you can get to know everyone, you can rise up and become a recognized name pretty quick and easily, which is good for a lot of people people enjoy that. So I think there are definitely like some cool things about the field that I've enjoyed. And those are all things I also think someone can absolutely say, Well, I don't like the field, because of that, too. Sorry, there is a place for people who don't want to deal with a tech you know, there's there's a place as an evaluator, there's a place as a performance improvement consultant, there's a place as just doing design work and handing off to a developer. But in general, a lot of people expect us to wear all those hats, and you really have to kind of juggle all of that. So yeah, if you don't like it, then you're gonna have issues in the field, like being successful. So you have to, I usually tell my students like find the part of the field they really like and try to excel. They're like, if it's evaluation, go that route. I have students that are just doing like, you know, performance improvement, and they love it. And that's what they liked. And they have jobs just doing that. So find your passion and follow that. I mean, I try to encourage my students to do that. But yeah, you got to figure you know, I knew I liked the tech. That's why I went into the field was the developer. You know, I wanted to be a web developer. So you know, go figure, like, we don't know where we're going to end up but I'm still doing that. Like I'm, I'm still developing content, like I was a content developer, you know, look at my web love for web development was really content development. And now I'm doing a lot of video and video stuff like, I've always loved developing my own content, so I'm still doing what I loved. You know, 20 some years later,

I love that like what you were saying there's so many different options. And there's, there's so many different paths, you can go in instructional design. Yeah. Which do you think has the best opportunity in elearning? Academic or corporate?

Oh, that's a good question. I would say it depends where your passion is. Because there there are careers in both of those industries. And they're different from one another. So you know, if you're, if your goal is to, like, be doing research and be a faculty member, then obviously you're you're gonna go an academic, but if your goal is just to be an instructional designer, you know, it's a tough call, like, do I go into academic or corporate or maybe even government as well, because that's a, that's another area, you know, the, the academic part of instructional design isn't gonna pay as well. But it's a different kind of work you're usually working with faculty are working internally with a college to develop their courses and their plan, it's a little more relaxed pace, in that, you know, you're not going to have the same schedule, you're probably not going to have like those weeks where you have to work like 120 hours a week, because your clients like demanding something, it's going to be a little more laid back a little more, a little less stressful, and your job is going to be a little more secure. So those are all advantages of academic. But as I said, your salary is going to be a little on the lower end. Now in corporate, your salary is going to be much higher, you have the opportunity to make a lot more money, but there's a chance your job could be much more stressful, depending on what you're doing, you might be worrying about getting the next contract or the next client or you could be at a stable place to you know, there's all kinds of variation in there. I'm just really generalizing what I typically see in the field. But I'd say in the corporate space, your jobs probably a little more exciting as well, you probably they have more money, they have opportunity to really work and do things different, especially like if you go into government, you're really interested in like VR, and games and simulations, like there's a lot to opportunity, more opportunity there. And like the government sector versus corporate in education. So it really depends what you want to do, what your goals are, and also where you want to live. Like, you know, if your goal is to work remotely you corporate is kind of the way to go right now. Whereas higher ed really needs people to be there. And government is a little iffy, but it's usually they want people there as well. So it kind of depends what you want to do, where you want to be where you want to live as well, like what resources are around the area that you're in. So as far as like, which is better, it's their advantages and disadvantages to everything, like every type of industry you look at in instructional design. So it really is about what best matches you as a person. You know, I've had like, I've been able fortunate enough to be able to work in all those spaces like I started as a government wax, actually, I started at MetLife as an intern, and I worked at MetLife. And then I went and I was a government contractor work for like the Department of the fence. And then I went into higher ed and worked as an instructional designer in for PBS and then higher ed, and then became a faculty member. And now I own a consulting firm, where I do mostly a kind of actually, I'm working in all three industries over the last two years with my consulting firm. So I get to see all those differences. And they're just unique and have their I have things I like about each of them. That's awesome.

Yeah, sounds like you have a very broad knowledge on all of it. And you did a really good job explaining differences in both the education and corporate fields, because I think a lot of people get confused on all that I get that question a lot about, like, where which to go, or what's the difference and everything. But I appreciate that. That was awesome. So why do you think teachers make good instructional designers? Well,

it's not necessarily that I think teachers make it I think anyone who has a passion for designing, training or learning or is interested in elearning, in any way makes a good instructional designer, I personally enjoy the person who hires I enjoy hiring teachers, I know that they have a been teaching people for forever. So even though they weren't a curriculum designer, as a teacher, they know what works. They also know how to command a classroom and people and know what motivates them and what what to do when someone's not learning doesn't impact elearning as much as it does like face to face training. So I really love to have teachers involved in any kind of face to face training because they have that like background. But you know, teaching in general, a teacher comes into an instructional design program, and they're gonna have some background knowledge. Like when I say Bloom's Taxonomy, even though I don't use Bloom's whatsoever, they're gonna at least know what that is, versus someone coming in from like, communications is gonna be like, I've never heard of that before. It's not that but I don't think that that's really a huge advantage, either. You know, I teach like classes like an assessment course and all my teachers are learning just as much as everyone else in that assessment course, regardless of how long they've been teaching. So you know, I don't I think it gives you a little bit of background knowledge and there's some relationship, but it's not a big enough thing for it to really be too much of an advantage. So I don't know if it's the thing about teaching is that if you want to leave teaching instructional design is a great place for teachers to go if they want to transition in the core So where I think it's not that teachers are stronger instructional designers for any reason, I think some so much, it's that it's a, it's a really good transition field for teachers that want to stay within the learning space, but do something a little different, make more money, being corporate, or government or whatever, just do something a little different, you know, maybe on the curriculum design side of things versus the teaching part. So it's not so much that I think that they are better, it's more that I think that it's a good transition, it's very much related to what they're currently doing. So that's where I think that the big push for teachers to do that when they're leaving, you know, they're searching like on the internet, like, what can I do as a teacher in corporate America to get out of here, you know, 50% of teachers leave within five years, what can I do, and it's one of the things that comes up. And you know, I would say like, 60 to 75% of my students are all teachers leaving education now in my state, teacher salaries are really low, like really, really low. So it's not, they're doing it for the they're going to, like, double or more than double their salary after getting the master's degree. So it's like, you know, a no brainer for them to want to do it, if that's their goal is the money. So, right.

Yeah. I mean, it's a good fit. But yeah, like, you make a good point. It has to be what you want to do if half of my followers are teachers, or work teachers, so and then it's scary, too, because they're having teachers shortages. That's a whole other topic.

Well, yeah, but that's, you know, that's not that's not our issue, like, sure, like that's, that has to do with states not paying teachers enough money. Like who wants it? Like in my state, the starting teacher salary is like $30,000 Like, I'm sorry, but like, you can't my students are telling me like, I want to like Dr. Pastore. We want to buy a house. What do I say? Like okay, I get it like you want you need to buy a house like yeah, I completely understand like, that's a good reason to leave like the we're having kids. We want a house. We want a home like we can't afford it.

You know, the career that they have. It's just it. It just I feel like it should be honored more than it is but