Navigating Your Career Path: Expert Insights from Dr. Ray Pastore, Professor of Instructional Design Part II

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SUMMARY

• In continuation of our chat with Dr. Ray Pastore, the discussion centered around the challenges faced by teachers and the financial aspects of the profession. It was acknowledged that while teaching is a rewarding career, it is not financially lucrative, which can be discouraging. The hope for positive changes in teacher salaries was expressed.
• Regarding instructional design models, Dr. Pastore highlighted the variety of models available but emphasized that he tailors his approach to each project based on the ADDIE framework. He highlighted the importance of problem-solving and addressing specific client needs rather than strictly adhering to a particular model.
• Looking ahead, the future of instructional design was discussed. The impact of online learning and the acceleration caused by COVID-19 were noted, leading to increased demand for instructional designers across various industries. It was predicted that salaries would continue to rise, and the field would further expand into areas like blockchain and AR/VR.
• For beginners interested in instructional design, Dr. Pastore advised pursuing formal training and gaining a solid foundation in the field. He stressed the significance of understanding the intricacies and best practices of instructional design, cautioning against the assumption that a portfolio alone is sufficient.
• Continual learning was highlighted as essential for instructional designers, given the ever-evolving nature of the field. The importance of staying up-to-date with new technologies and approaches was emphasized, as well as the need to adapt to the changing landscape.
• In conclusion, the key advice offered to those starting out in online learning and instructional design was to follow their passions, take their time to absorb knowledge, and learn from experienced professionals. By doing so, they can build successful careers in instructional design.

INSPIRATIONAL QUOTES

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, and welcome to the elearning and instructional design for beginners podcast, where new and aspiring instructional designers start, grow and advance their careers and instructional design, and online learning development. I'm your host, Krystal Harper. I'm a former school teacher who transitioned to instructional design, all while working full time as a single mom, would you like to become a successful instructional designer without the burden of earning another degree? Well, then let's get started.

Sure, yeah, I mean, there's lots of issues and in that whole thing, so you know, and I have three little kids, so I want them to have great teachers and good scholastic experience. They're all in elementary school, but like, I can't tell my students like, oh, no, stay in teaching. Like, it's really great. Yeah, it's a rewarding career, but like, it's not worth it financially whatsoever. Not like, I would not tell my kids to do it at all, I wouldn't even let them I'd be like, no, like, terrible career choice. Like you at some point in your life, you're gonna be like, I need to pay a medical bill and all sudden, you won't be able to because you decided to be a teacher like, that's, it's not cool. It's not fair to anybody. So

that's sad. It's really sad. But hopefully things will change. Yeah, I mean, that

would be awesome. I mean, I hope for that, I would love to see teachers paid at least livable wages for live. I mean, absolutely. That needs to happen at some point. But you know, I tell people, I'm like, it's an unfortunate situation, in that my field is able to take advantage of teachers leaving education, but it is what it is. And that's, that's beyond the scope of anything I can do other than give them advice and tell them how they can be successful as an instructional designer or I do, I've had students who went in, got their masters became an instructional designer quit teaching, and two or three years later went back into the class. Yeah,

I mean, it has to be the fit for you. You have to be

everybody's different. Everyone has what they like and don't like, what is

your favorite instructional design model? And why

that's like a trick question. For me. That's a trick question. Because there are literally 1000s of instructional design models, all based on the ADDIE framework. First of all, I don't use a model at all, I use Addie as my framework, and I tailor what I'm going to do towards the project that I'm on, there is no like, oh, I use this model. And like I go in, and I hear what the problem is. And I solve the problem, choose everything I'm selecting, from my technology to my learning strategies to like my organizational strategy, my delivery strategies to the how I'm going to do my analysis and design and develop based on what the client needs. There is no I don't go in and say we're using articulate and that's like, articulate elearning. That's what I do. And that's what we're going to do for you. It's like know, what is your problem? And how can I best solve it because that might be through programming, a mobile app that might be through through articulate or Captivate or that might be through like me using PowerPoint, or face to face training, or whatever it is. So there is no one model that I like to use, I use the ADDIE framework as a basis from where I start, follow the project from there on, you know, it's more about like project management and project communication, I know that I need to do some kind of analysis, I know that I'm going to be designing the training, I know that it's going to get developed, I know we might implement it, we might evaluate it, I follow more like here's the timeline, here's what needs to happen. How do we make everything happen in that time, there is no one model that I use. I mean, there are 1000s of instructional design models that everyone says are like the best one, but it's based on a project. And they're all slightly the same exact thing. They're all just read descriptions of the ADDIE saying, Well, I do analysis this way. And I do analysis this way. And I do design this.

And with all your experience, too. I'm sure over time, you just intertwine multiple different models and things that you've learned and whatever fits the project. You know, like Yeah,

I mean, you know, I mean, we teach our students Dick and Carey, because it's like the generic like model that you're supposed to learn based on the ADDIE framework, you know, but I introduced him to a bunch of others like camp Morrison, Ross and assure and whatever else out is out there that I feel like introducing them to but you know, even like in my book I just wrote about like, this is what has to happen to get a project done. It's less about like picking an exact model and saying, like, what do I need to do to solve this problem? How

do you see the career of instructional design 10 years from now,

so I think the career is definitely going to continue to pick up you know, obviously, online learning has accelerated our career significantly since the late mid to late 90s, early 2000s. And it has grown exponentially throughout that time. And COVID has accelerated the process by about five to 10 years. So probably what we're seeing right now is probably what we would have seen in five years from now, a lot more remote work, salaries increasing significantly, you know, our salary average has went up significantly in the last year and a half a lot more companies have needs for instructional designers or have become to know you know, even in education like the need for an instructional designer at a college every college now has like a Director of Online Learning has an elearning department At the end, a lot of them didn't have some of them didn't even have LMS. Every college does now. So like in nearly every industry it has picked up significantly. And I don't see that stopping. I think the only thing that could potentially ever stop our field would be aI being able to develop courses without humans, but I don't, we're pretty far away. That's not gonna happen in my lifetime. And I work with a lot of AI stuff from like a technical standpoint and really study it. So I don't see we're not even near like anything like that happening. And if anything, AI is going to help us do our jobs better. So yeah, I think I think we're gonna see a lot more of instructional designers involved in the, you know, blockchain and how to incorporate blockchain into LMSs. And training and learning. I think that's going to be something that's coming as well as VR stuff, you know, AR VR really going to become ingrained in what we're doing. So we're going to need software that allows us to develop an app because right now, the only thing we have for VR is Captivate I'm really excited Adobe's doing it, but like, it doesn't work too. Well. I don't know, instructional designers aren't programmers, and they may need to be

if I'm a beginner, just starting, they just want to transition. They don't know anything, they

so my goal, when I tell people when someone comes to me, and they're like, look, I want to learn to be an actor, I want to be an instructional designer I want to get in my goal is then go learn to be an instructional designer, like go learn how to do it, get a certificate or a degree somewhere and learn how to do it. There's a lot of people in our field that will say, Oh, yeah, just like development portfolio and captivate and you're like, you can be an instructional designer. But it's a very odd thought process. Because we're, we go into companies and tell people like they need training on stuff. So like, we should be trained on how to do that. So I tell people usually go get trained on how to do it. So if they want to know where to start, sign up for class, sign up for a class, get the background knowledge, learn how to do it. And then there's so many good resources out there to add on to that experience. There's YouTube videos, there's books, there's groups everywhere, sign up for all that stuff, take it all in and learn how to do it, I plan to spend a solid year to like learning how to actually do this job correctly. There's so much bad training out there, and you want to be one of the people doing it correctly and create good training. So learn how to do it, I'd say like, you know, it's an awesome it's a fun experience, all the stuff all the whole learning aspect is fun. So like it's that's usually my first advice for someone is Go learn how to be an instructional designer, right?

Learn the material, learn how to learn the trainings, learn everything there is to learn I agree with a lot of people just think they can just I get that all the time. They'll be like, how do I build my portfolio? And I'm like, Well, you need to learn how to create these materials first, exactly.

Like people don't know what they don't know. And it's dangerous when I go and I just had to take a computer based training this morning. And I was like, This is terrible. Now who developed this but like this is the problem is that there are people who it's like, it'd be like going to the doctor and like, look, I could diagnose like a cold, I learned how to do it. I've had colds before I can go diagnose a cold, but like I'm not a doctor. And like, can I recognize that someone has like this weird pain that signifies like meningitis or something more serious. Same thing with instructional design, like anyone can go to design training, but like you can't recognize when like, what you're doing isn't correct, because like you weren't trained to it's like those little things that make these big differences in outcomes that all of a sudden, like the training I took today, it was not formatted correctly for a 980 by 1020 resolution screen, why someone would develop it in a different resolution, I don't know. But they they just didn't pay attention when they published it, because they probably were never taught about resolution. And it was just something not to pay attention to. So when you screen it up on a 4k monitor, like I have, it doesn't show up correct. And like they just probably didn't think about that, because they weren't really taught about they didn't take courses on development. So they don't know those little things to look out for and what those numbers are and stuff and it's like made the biggest difference. I couldn't see half the training, I had to like keep scrolling all around everywhere because they can't zoom correctly.

Yeah, and there is a lot to learn with my community. I have have everything I learned in school, and it's a lot of trainings and I get this I don't have time but it's really like

you have if you want a new career, you got to investigate like, exactly you want to be a career imagine the investment someone takes to be a medical doctor. They can't until they're like in their 30s going from 18 years old bachelor's degree four years Matta school two years right and then they owe like 100 grand we're talking one to two years of training. Yeah, that literally hardly cost you anything and yes, it's much easier if you do it in your 20s before you are assuming someone doesn't have all these responsibilities. You know, we get more as we age. Yes, I get it. But like if you want to do the correct career transition, like take the time I have a lot of students working full time jobs with families who are doing it and they're doing it in like one and a half to two years. So I know it can be done though. Like there isn't excuses for people like I'm watching people do it. So successfully? And they say, yeah, it's a lot, but I just manage my schedule and budget and I still get to go to my kids soccer games, I'm still going to Cub Scouts. I'm still spending time with my significant other, I'm still working a full time job and taking two classes, you know, so I know people can do

1. Right. Yeah, it's a matter of priorities, definitely making it a priority. Yeah. A lot of people like go into the field to already had a career. So they're transitioning. So I maybe that's a lot of it. They don't want to have to relearn it all. But I mean, yeah, if you're starting a new career, you have to Yeah, that's always part

of it. You should continue to want to learn stuff. Like I continue to learn every single day, even though I'm not taking courses, which I would and I'm not because I can't prioritize, because I have a full time job, like three side jobs. And I have wife kids who, like I honestly don't, wouldn't have to, I'd have to, I'd have to cut something else off my plate to do but like, I would love to go take courses, but I'm still learning every day new things on my own.

Definitely, even in this field. Like, if you get your degree, you have to keep learning because it's constantly new things.

Yeah, I mean, when I when I started, the tech is 100% different than it is now. And in 10 years, it's going to be different from what we like, as I said, with the AR VR stuff, like everyone's going to be learning new stuff soon, where you have to learn it or you what words

of wisdom would you share with someone just getting started and online learning and instructional design, my words

of wisdom are follow your passion, do what you'd like to do, and you will be successful. Take your time, absorb as much knowledge as you can, as you can just follow your passions. You know, if you're interested in the design and development, focus your career on that, if you're interested in analysis, focus your like front end analysis, performance improvement, focus on that take the time to actually make sure you're learning it, learning it correctly. Learn it from people who are experienced, who could give you all the knowledge and stories of how things got to the way they are so that you understand that history that history is super important. So go back and learn about it. And really make sure you know the field and you will be very successful as an instructional designer. And it doesn't take a lot of time to do that. As I said before someone can really get into our field in one to two years like learn everything they need to be really good person to have on a team.

Yeah, especially just in the beginning to if you find what you like, because there's so many different courses and paths out there, start focusing on courses related to that. And

you might even find you you're into video production or programming or something different, like I do get people coming into our field thinking it's something different kind of like how I did from the beginning. And they find it's not for them. But you have to find that out and give it a go and find out find out where you do fit. I always tell people to follow their interests because it always leads to success. If you really follow your passions. The definition of success is different for everyone. Maybe it just means being happy in your career. She's you want to be happy doing what you're doing. I mean, you spend most your life doing it. Yeah, like be dissatisfied, be happy and like be able to look back and say, Well, I'm glad I wasn't like doing something like whatever it is that I didn't like.

Thank you for that advice. That's awesome. Do you have a favorite quote?

What I like to do is I like to ask people, What is instructional design? I love to ask instructional designers what it is to hear their definition. Yeah, I watched a really one of my professors who was old school guy from graduated in like the mid 60s in ED site, you know, there was no instructional design back then instructional design came from inside, he would just ask people getting their doctorate. What did he call what is instructional design? You would hear him call on them? And people would be like silent, like, what answer does he expect me to give and he'd be like you're working on your PhD in this, you should be able to tell me what the definition is right off the tip of your tongue. He's like, You should have a quick definition and say like, what this is, he's like, if you can't tell me and you're working on a PhD in this field, he's like, why should anyone else know what this is? Right? That's a good point. Interesting professor in that regard. Do a lot of things like overhead projector slides from the 70s that were brown because they were so like, you know, on paper, like newspaper gets really old. It turns like that yellow color. Yeah, that color because they were from he wrote them in like 1970. And this was like 2006 was still using. He was like, I'm not using he's like, don't send me an email cuz I don't use it. Like just, but it was great. He was he was probably like one of, you know, up there and my top like, favorite professors I ever had. And I learned so much from this guy. But it was funny that just the way he would ask questions and stuff, so whenever I don't really have a quote, but you know, it's more of just an act of what he was. Yeah,

that's so cool. I love it. Awesome. I want to start asking people and now it's a good

I do during interviews. I ask people during interviews, I ask all kinds of questions like that. And when they can't answer I'm like you they have to know and like one second like this is not happening for me. You can't answer like basic questions like well, you're gonna have some issues.

Now, could you tell everyone about your recent book and how they can get a copy of it?

Sure. So I wrote a book, this was a two year ordeal. It's really based on an instructional design video series that I created over the last five years. And I turned it into a book, the book is 100%, free on my website, Ray pastore.com, R aypstre.com. It's 100%, free to PDF version, you want to buy a copy, you can buy it on Amazon for $10 to print version, but anyway, the book is about it's a how to guide for instructional designer practitioners like how to how to go through the process from start to finish, especially coming from the eyes of someone who's done it as a consultant, and saying, How do I go through the whole process? What are the steps and I tried to break things down and make them really simple for people to understand, like, a lot of what it is, are things that I see, like I train a lot I have, you know, a lot of instructional designers coming and getting their master's in my program, and I see what they don't get, I see what my students can't like, have problems with what areas like they don't understand all the quality checkpoints that we have in the ID process. And I go through those in the book. And I say, this is right now where you have a quality checkpoint with your client. So make sure you get it, make sure you get a sign off or a verbal email. This is where I write my proposal. And this is how I gather that information. And this is what what I have to write the proposal with. So I go into a lot of life scenarios in that I explain what I do when I'm working with a client, like how do I get their signature? When do I get it? You know, how do I figure all that stuff out? How does the really the project management and communication piece fit into it? People get really confused about ID models and learning theories and stuff and how they all really fit together and work. They don't know what's the difference? Like when do you use gone yeas versus multimedia principles or wait a second? You don't use those differently. They work together how and when does all that happen? And I try to explain all that because those are the points of confusion I see in the field.

Oh, that's so cool. I love that. I'm definitely going to check out a copy of that book. Yeah, it's

free. easy read. It's like 100 Some pages it's but yeah, it's free for everybody. I'm big on open source stuff, everything should be free. So I like giving stuff away. I only have the print version only costs 10 bucks, because that's what Amazon forces me to. And if someone wants a print copy, that's all you gotta do. You gotta buy it free on my website, download the PDF, not gonna cost you a thing.

Okay, well, I'll post a link to your website and to Amazon if they want to purchase. Yeah, absolutely. And all the peer review articles that you wrote to that sounds interesting. I read about

They're fun. They're challenging. I love the research. I love the methodology. I like doing it. I really enjoy it. Yeah, I'm trying to do like one a year now now that I'm full professor, I don't really have to do any more if I don't want to, but I'll probably end up doing like I'm working on a project right now. So probably more like one a year one every other year. I'll get out. I'm still gonna continue with the research. I don't want to stop it or anything like that. But I'm focusing more on other things like video like, you know, just different things that I like I focused on my book last year, just other things that I'm interested in. I can do now.

That's so cool. Are those on your website? Everything's on

my website. Everything on my website, awesome resume and all that good stuff. Everything's there. Yes.

Awesome. Yes. Good. Well, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with everyone. I know that this will bring great value to so many people watching. Thank you for learning with E teach online and have a great day. Thanks, everybody. All right, that wraps up this week's podcast episode. And if you want some more help and more guidance, then make sure that you sign up for my free elearning and instructional design for beginners toolkit tools and processes that will actually help you start grow and advance your instructional design and elearning course development career. This toolkit will provide you with everything that you need to get started for a successful career in instructional design. Just go to www.ie Teach online.com/toolkit So if you liked this podcast, then you should definitely sign up for the toolkit. Just head to my website at WWW dot att online.com/toolkit I've also got a ton of other free resources that can help you succeed in instructional design, visit my [email protected] Teach online.com Thanks so much for listening. Now go out there and take action on what you learned about instructional design today.